Ergonomics of the Kingdom
Four buddies of mine (Andre is pictured here) came down and stayed at my house for a few days this past week. One of the things we did was to climb Vasquez Rocks, located just fifteen minutes from my house. We all had a great time, and even Matt Maselli, with blood and sweat (but no tears) made it to the top. This got me thinking about the new heavens and new earth, and ergonomics. I haven't thought this through completely, and I'm not solidifying my doctrine by posting this so don't cry "Heretic!" if I say something questionable.I grew up being taught by everyone that in the resurrection, there will be no more pain, no more suffering, etc. However, I think that we all agree here that there will definitely be work in the resurrection; after all, the first Adam worked in the garden, and we will be redeemed Adams working in God's new garden.
I don't know about you, but I have come to appreciate work, and part of what makes it so good is the pain and exhaustion which you are able to overcome. I'm not saying that it's only good after the work is done and you can sigh and say that it was worth the pain. I'm actually saying that there seems to be something good in the actual pain, suffering, and exertion of it all. And there's something fulfilling and cathartic about collapsing on the floor after climbing a mountain, or running a race.
So I guess I'm wondering, how might this fit together in the resurrection? I'm hoping that somehow, my perfected body will be able to sweat, and ache. Is that crazy?
posted by DrewDog | 9:08 AM
24 Comments:
Drew,
Good stuff. Your question does give one pause. Somehow we associate perfection with lack of effort. But we find effort so enjoyable. I guess I would lump this in with eating. Perfected bodies dont NEED food, but Christ still ate. Becuase eating is more than necessity, it is a joy.
The resurrection will be a world without death and all those things associated with it. But the good effects of using our body in ways they were intended seem like they must endure.
But then again, I too could be heretical.
Thanks, Steve.
I'm wondering, is it necessarily true (from Scripture) that a perfected body doesn't need food? Maybe that sounds like a dumb question (consider the source), but what if we're projecting our conceptions of perfection onto the Biblical one in which it might not be implicit that eating/work is just an option?
You might say, "But if you need something, then you're not perfect, because if deprived of it, you could die, and there is no death in the resurrection."
But, just as we will still "need" God, the assurance is that we will indeed "have" God, so also with food.
This is all of the top of my head, and quite possibly a pointless conversation, but there you go.
Another thing I wanted to comment on, is that the part I'm having trouble with is the idea that there will be no more pain or weariness.
Unlike food (no one ever said, "there will be no more food"), pain and exhaustion are commonly thought to be products of the fall. I'm just not so sure, especially about the exhaustion part.
And that's where I get the sneaking suspicion that I sound heretical. But I'm just thinking out loud.
This sort of reminds me of a talk that Peter Kreeft gave about heaven. He said that while he was in college, he was involved in a discussion as to whether Adam and Eve ever farted while in the garden. His conclusion was that they probably did, but they were perfect and like music to the ear.
Anyhow, I think it makes sense that work can be performed in a perfectly intended way; Adam named all the animals prior to sinning (not an easy task I'm sure).
what about childbirth only after the fall does it become painful. (although erica sees a peculiarity in how it couldn't have been painful to begin with) maybe the curse is now there is an enmity between us and pain. like the enmity between the woman and the serpent... all women hate snakes right?
But the curse of eve was that the pains of childbirth would be multiplied not that they would come into existence. Evidently, labor was labor even before the fall...just not so laborious.
If my reading is right, then Eve and childbirth might be an example of good pain existing before the Fall, and therefore evidence of its continuance in some form in the New Heavens and the New Earth.
My thoughts precisely, Steve. I was about to mention the multiplication of pain, as well as the sorrow that is introduced in Genesis 3.
Sorrow is surely something no one can look forward to in the resurrection.
And, picking up on Andre's comment, Adam's work which surely existed prior to the fall (and probably gave him sore muscles), was frustrated after the fall by thistles and cursed ground.
And might I just add, as a side note, that I am truly enjoying sitting in the pub once again, with my good friends, having a fun discussion.
I just wish we had real beer and nachos in front of us, and that we could all see each other face to face.
I guess we'll have to settle for this somewhat disembodied bliss for now...
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side note: I look like I'm yawning in that picture :\
I agree, Yawning, just kidding. I agree that there probably was pain before the fall and after there was an enmity between us and pain.
A very simplistic way of looking at it is that pain "our body's way of telling us that something is wrong". If we didn't feel achy after a good run (of course, this is all theoretical for me) or if I hadn't felt pain when I cut my finger at Vasquez Rocks, I might have kept doing the same thing that cut my finger in the first place. It makes complete sense to me that there was some pain in the garden.
You have a most interesting blog.
Stay on groovin' safari,
Tor
...sounds like "theology on tap" here, which is cool. You all mind if I join in the interest of sharpening swords?
Welcome, Andy. By all means, you're welcome here! We haven't been posting much lately, everyone's so busy. But, perhaps if we get some stimulating conversation going, we'll be encouraged to start posting again.
I'm pretty sure there will be work in the new earth but I suspect that the energy exerted will not have the possibility of being lost or forgotten like it is in the fallen earth. For example, if you work to study and learn new things then there will never be a time when those things need to be relearned. Something along the lines of "two steps forward, one step back", but without the step back.
I also suspect that our basic needs will be completely taken care of making it such that all work done will be solely related to the myriad forms of worship, thus making it enjoyable by all as opposed to being enjoyed by the worker alone.
Good thoughts, Andy.
My original post took the things you stated more or less for granted.
The key issue I was dealing with was not merely work, but rather the pain that is often associated with work. Not the "bad" pain, but the good pain, namely the catharsis that is experienced in the pain which attends the exertion of energy.
Perhaps our definition of pain is too broad. IOW perhaps cathartic "pain" is not pain at all, but since it feels awfully close to that thing we don't like called pain, we just lump it in there. Make sense?
Thoughts anyone?
Actually, no, it can't say it makes sense to me, yet. Are you saying that if the "bad pain" is defined as the lactic acid that builds up in the muscles when they run out of their own stored energy and the "catharsis" is defined as the endorphins produced in response, then it may be possible there is a perfect balance between the two and it wouldn't actually "hurt"?
No, not at all. Actually, I think the lactic acid build up is cathartic. I'm talking about the difference between cathartic pain (lactic acid, exhaustion, et el) as opposed to straight-up, kick-in-the-head, nociceptor registering pain. I could be all wet about that, of course.
One thing I know is that certain types of "pain," typically those which accompany work, seem to redeemable.
Sorry if I'm not being clear; it's finals week and my brain's fried.
Andrew
No worries. Its becoming clearer. I'm a bit thick in the head and inexperienced in this kind of dialog so that's probably contributing to the misunderstanding.
Interestingly, my first comment still applies because the muscle's response to lactic acid is to grow stronger and if there is never any deterioration of that strengthened muscle then eventually there will be no lactic acid buildup at all. So even if there is cathartic pain in a perfect body, will the body eliminate it in the future thus making repeated trips up the mountain effortless in comparison? And if that is the case then can we also say cathartic pain in this world is a constant reminder of our fallen nature since we must continually experience it in order to stay ahead of decay?
My apologies if I'm still way off track,
Andy F.
The only problem for me, and the reason for this post, is that I LIKE cathartic pain. That's the whole point. Your explanation eradicates something that I'm hoping is present in the resurrection. Do you see what I'm saying?
What you are putting forth here is a good articulation of how cathartic pain might be "taken care of" in the resurrection. That seems to be what I was always taught.
However, this is precisely what I'm questioning. To put it another way, one of the ONLY reasons I go running everyday (besides staying healthy) is because the pain and exhaustion feels good. The lactic acid build-up in my muscles after I work out feels good. And the only time I want a massage is when I'm sore.
Now, maybe I'm the only weirdo around who enjoys cathartic pain, and if so, that probably answers it. But, am I the only one?
Am I missing the point? Would a massage somehow feel good after working out, even if there were no lactic acid?
I don't enjoy cathartic pain so I'm having difficulty relating but I can now agree with you that there might be pain in a perfect body. If the muscle never deteriorates, though, you'd have to run farther and farther each time unless all the acid was massaged out before the body responded to it. Maybe the massage would not only feel good but would also make it so you don't have to run farther and farther thus perpetuating massages feeling good and avoiding your eventual Mr.Universe look. Maybe how skinny and less toned you are is directly proportional to the skill of the massager. That's probably an extreme. It's more likely there's a balance between the two and it's pretty close to what we've already got going on in what is considered a healthy body.
So, yeah, I can see your point about pain not necessarily being bad now. I can also see I might need to go Google "logic" so I don't make you have to reiterate it all in different words (sorry). We didn't quite cover that in music school. :)
Fun talk though.
- Andy F.
No problem, Andy. I'm sure the problem isn't with your powers of logic, it's with my ability to articulate!
I suspect that I'm all wet with this whole deal, but it was a fun thought experiment.
Thanks for joining in.
Andrew
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