Reductio ad Absurdum
Recently, the Southern Baptist Convention passed a resolution regarding alcohol (I'm not trying to tick off any of my many Southern Baptist friends). Below I have placed the text of that resolution, followed by my own resolution regarding sex, using the SBC's logic. This is one of my longer posts, so I'll apologize for that now.
On Alcohol Use In America
Whereas, Years of research confirm biblical warnings that alcohol use leads to physical, mental, and emotional damages (e.g., Proverbs 23:29-35); and
Whereas, Alcohol use has led to countless injuries and deaths on our nation's highways; and
Whereas, The breakup of families and homes can be directly and indirectly attributed to alcohol use by one or more members of a family; and
Whereas, The use of alcohol as a recreational beverage has been shown to lead individuals down a path of addiction to alcohol and toward the use of other kinds of drugs, both legal and illegal; and
Whereas, There are some religious leaders who are now advocating consumption of alcoholic beverages based on a misinterpretation of the doctrine of "our freedom in Christ"; now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Greensboro, North Carolina, June 13-24, 2006, express our total opposition to the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and consuming of alcoholic beverages; and be it further
Resolved, That we urge that no one be elected to serve as a trustee or member of any entity or committee of the Southern Baptist Convention that is a user of alcoholic beverages; and be it further
Resolved, That we urge Southern Baptists to take an active role in supporting legislation that is intended to curb alcohol use in our communities and nation; and be it further
Resolved, That we urge Southern Baptists to be actively involved in educating students and adults concerning the destructive nature of alcoholic beverages; and be it finally
Resolved, That we commend organizations and ministries that treat alcohol-related problems from a biblical perspective and promote abstinence and encourage local churches to begin and/or support such biblically-based ministries."
On Sex In America
Whereas, Years of research confirm biblical warnings that sex leads to physical, mental, and emotional damages (e.g., Romans 1:26-32); and
Whereas, Sex has led to countless injuries and deaths in our nation's cities and towns; and
Whereas, The breakup of families and homes can be directly and indirectly attributed to sex by one or more members of a family; and
Whereas, Sex as a recreational activity has been shown to lead individuals down a path of addiction to pornography and toward the practice of other lascivious acts, both legal and illegal; and
Whereas, There are some religious leaders who are now advocating homosexuality based on a misinterpretation of the doctrine of "our freedom in Christ"; now, therefore, be it
Resolved, That the messengers to the Bird and Baby Public House meeting in Blogsford, Internetland, June 20-21, 2006, express our total opposition to the manufacturing, advertising, distributing, and practicing of sexual intercourse; and be it further
Resolved, That we urge that no one be elected to serve as a contributor or member of any entity or committee of the Bird and Babe Public House that is a practicer of sex; and be it further
Resolved, That we urge Christians to take an active role in supporting legislation that is intended to curb sex in our communities and nation; and be it further
Resolved, That we urge Christians to be actively involved in educating students and adults concerning the destructive nature of sex; and be it finally
Resolved, That we commend organizations and ministries that treat sex-related problems from a biblical perspective and promote abstinence and encourage local churches to begin and/or support such biblically-based ministries."
posted by DrewDog | 2:41 PM
41 Comments:
Great post Drew.
It's a fun time to be at Southern Seminary. Many of the administration and faculty want to support the resolution, but many of them realize that Scripture won't allow them to. Nonetheless, they are glad it passed, and that it passed "overwhelmingly" seems to indicate to them that it was the right thing to do.
See you in a couple of weeks.
Thanks, Jeff. I hope the dialog regarding this subject continues at Southern.
Looking forward to seeing you and your beautiful family soon!
2 bits of good news:
1. This is mostly a rehash of a resolution passed 20 years ago on the same issue in the same language...verbatim in some places.
2. Someone thought this resolution necessary becuase people where teaching correctly on the subject.
My one hope in all this is that it shows a reaction to a groundswell of soundly biblical teaching.
Jeff's post about the prof's is a good one. Most people have a ways to go from the theoretical "The Bible doesnt condemn consumption of alcoholic beverages," to the practical (and enjoyable) "therefore pass the Shiner."
Continuiing the sex analogy: the problem is akin to christian couples who intially have trouble with sex because what they had been told their whole lives was bad, dirty, etc...is not just allowed but intended for their joy.
Though this resolution is frustrating, I think it represents the reaction to some baby steps in the right direction being taken within the SBC.
Yeah, it's amazing how influential the women's suffrage movement has been in the church. Simple logic defeats the arguments against prohibition, but the church just can't seem to shake the idea.
And I liked how steve pointed out that although my reductio was meant to show how silly this resolution is, many people do indeed apply this logic to sex (as well as any other non-prudish, fun activity).
Oh wow - this is an interesting thread.
There is no question believers have liberty to drink adult beverages. But to equate drinking beer to sex is - excuse me - sophomoric. It is cute, even clever, but come on. It is not even close to the same thing!
Are you trying to rationalize your own use of alcohol? Would you encourage young people to drink? I've had considerable experience dealing with the abuse of alcohol, and too often the abuse started with some guys taking a birthday boy out on his 21st birthday.
Do your churches serve beer at social events? Are you looking for license to engage is any activity that is not expressly prohibited in the Bible? Other than poking fun at the SBC (which I'm not a memer of) what is the point?
I am not sure what makes the comparison of sex with alcohol sophomoric. The two subjects have at least two similarities.
1. Both are good gifts from God intended for our pleasure.
2. The abuse of either ruins lives.
The purpose of the post was to show that if the abuse of sex doesnt make sex a sin, then the abuse of alcohol doesnt make alcohol a sin. Use appropriate to the time, place, situation, context is the issue.
I would argue that sex is more destructive than alcohol when abused. Once again the enemy has us fighting a side battle while he wages the real war elsewhere.
I am not sure what needs to be rationallized about drinking beer. The majority of Christians in the majority of places drank to the glory of God...even considered the crafting of these drinks as an image of co-laboring with God.
With this in mind, it seems more likely that the position of a minority of American Christians regarding teetotalism is rather a rationalization on their part for a position not found in scripture and not in keeping with the witness of Christian tradition?
Steve,
What is wrong with teaching abstinence from alcohol? Just because it is lawful does not make it useful. Sex is necessary - alcohol is not. That is why the comparison is sophomoric.
Not useful? Not necessary?
As Christian's we must let God's written objective words tell us what is useful and necessary for life.
There is no doubt that there are lots of warnings about abusing strong drink through out Scripture, yet the same God that gave us those warnings commanded his people to bring Him new wine as a sacrifice.
Told his people to buy wine with tithes.
Deut 14:
25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.
the same God that said that also said
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change"
From where I am sitting if God requires it in His worship (yes we use real wine in communion at my church), and he offers it as a cure for ailments
(1Ti 5:23 - No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities. )
...not to mention for depression, and general celebration...
if this same God is the same yesterday, today and forever then yes I will happily consider the use of alcohol useful and necessary.
---------
Drewdog - great post I have often used a similar analogy with my abstaining friends.
Pc3 - if you wish to put yourself under the Jewish ceremonial law, go ahead, but be sure to keep all of it. And be sure to share with the Levite - I haven't ran into to any of them myself.
Wine for the stomach - fine, if you have frequent infirmities.
What is funny about anonymous-es statement regarding the permissibility/profitability of both sex and alcohol is that in 1 Corinthians where Paul talks about what is permissible and profitable, the subject is SEX. Some people in Corinth where saying that is was not appropriate for Christians to have sex, or if it was, then at least those who were abstaining from sex were more spiritual that those carnal Christians who indulge in these worldly pleasure. Paul responds by saying that each person is to do that he is able to do with thanksgiving to the glory of God without being mastered by it. But this is a determination each individual Christian makes for himself, not has made for him by others people…that is why it is called liberty.
In addition, I don’t think that pc3 was trying to advocate the keeping of the law, only that it shows Gods attitude towards certain things. If God doesn’t hate alcohol, even encourages its use, in the OT, why would he suddenly change his mind in the NT?
Of wine in the NT: 1. Jesus was called a wine-bibber, evidently because the Pharisees thought he was drinking too much and with the wrong people. 2. Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding feast for people who were celebrating. Had he hated wine, he could have said “You guys have had enough, drink water from here on out.” He doesn’t. He makes the best wine they had tasted.
Steve,
You say God encourages the use of alcohol - I think that is a major reach. Does He allow the use - yup - you gotta show me where God encourages alcohol use.
As far as the 1 Cor, unless we are reading wildly different translations, the topic is meat sacraficed to idols.
Anonymous:
Numerous passages have been listed in previous posts from Deut. 14’s enjoyment of wine before the Lord as an act of worship to Jesus’ Miracle at Cana. All of them suggest not just that God tolerates our consumption of alcohol but encourages it and intends its use for our good. Please feel free to address any of these passages, especially the Miracle at Cana.
In conversing about this topic last night, I realized that proponents of abstinence have one place to go - They must deny that the wine blessed by the Bible contained any alcohol. This article tries to take this approach and seems to make some interesting points.
So, to play devil's advocate:
What are the best proofs that the wine commended in the Bible contained alcohol?
Vijay,
Read my posts - I've never suggested the Bible teaches alcohol abstinence - I've only said there is nothing wrong with promoting alcohol abstinence. The Bible allows alcohol use, but Steve and others suggest the Bible encourages alcohol use. I disagree with that conclusion, but if they wish to believe that, fine.
Your question about proofs that the wine in the Bible contain alcohol (I smell a pun) is interesting. I think likely the wine did contain alcohol, but I also question how much alcohol. There are numerous references warnings about excessive consumption of wine.
Steve,
We are going to have to disagree about what the passage is Deut means - I don't see it as encouraging drinking alcohol. Same with the wedding at Cana - Jesus provided the beat wine but to say He encouraged the drinking is supposition - He was merely helping out a groom who would be in embarassed for not planning ahead. In fact at the time of Jesus if a groom did not supply enough food or wine for the seven day weddning feast, the groom could be fined. To say this miracle shows Jesus encourages alcohol use is 'proof texting' - a handy way to use the Bible to prove almost anything. You need to look at the historical context.
Also as far as liberty I direct you to the Westminster Confession, chapter 20.
Cheers
Anonymous,
Sorry to cause confusion - I was actually trying to help :). My question was actually directed at those of us who believe it is ok to drink alcohol for enjoyment.
My thought is that the Bible clearly allows wine (fruit of the vine) consumption, but many opponents of alcohol consumption claim that the "best" or "new" wine (i.e. the wine that Jesus made at Cana) was not fermented. So, if it can be conclusively proven that the wine Jesus drank had a similar alcoholic content to today, I think there can be no more real debate on whether or not alcohol is allowable for the Christian. And if it is proven that the Bible allows alcohol, then there must be a way to encourage and enjoy alcohol responsibly. (like sex)
However, this is not an open and shut case, because we have sentiments like the SBC resolution from good Christian people.
Also, I have heard some Christians reluctantly agree that alcohol is not sinful, but then with statements like "I'm a Christian, so I don't drink" show that they actually believe otherwise.
Therefore, I think that a more rigorous proof of Biblical wine alcohol proof (there's the pun) will give a better foundation to the encouraged vs. not encouraged debate. Hopefully this is relevant.
Vijay
Vijay,
As far as a more rigorous proof of Biblical wine alcohol proof, I don't think we have to look far. Again, let's look at the Deauteronomy passage. Verse 26 says to use the tithe to buy "strong drink" (at least according to 4 versions of the Bible that I own). Honestly, I couldn't believe it myself when I first noticed that.
!Salud! !Dos más!
Dear Anonymous,
First of all, I think that you missed Steve's comment about fighting the side battle. In reality it does not matter what exactly the item of the do or don't discussion is. What matters is that someone, or in this case, the Southern Baptist as a whole is taking a stand against something. Again, taking a stand against something is not wrong in and of itself. The issue with the SB's stand is that they are taking it based on something that they claim God and His Word are against, or at the least, not promoting. This is very wrong, when in fact there are ONLY warnings against it's abuse--not its normal use.
I could say the same thing about drugs. Drugs are harmful, deadly, very addictive, very lucrative for evil persons, etc. I am sure in your lifetime that you have in fact taken drugs of some form or another. If you are a U.S. citizen, which I highly suspect as there are doubtless many Christians outside of the U.S. who are against the use of alcohol, then you received drugs at an early age--called vaccines. That was even before you turned 21 and even before the age of acountablity.
Sorry, Mr. A., for poking a little, but do you see the point here? I think that the only reason that you are fired up here is because of the word "alcohol"--doh, I said it again. If it were the same outlined argument concerning something that you had nothing against I am sure this would not even faze you. In fact you might have even supported this blog with wonderful, educated comments had it been the same argument over something that you were not personally against.
If you personally have something against alcohol, fine, but to take something that the Bible is not even against (normal use of) and try to force it on others is anti-Biblical, anti-Christian, anti-love, and anti-anything else that makes logical sense.
That, my anonymous friend, I believe was what this blog was pointing out. Please don't try to target their comparison with sex. It could have been a comparison with many different things. The point with that comparison was to illustrate the absurdity of this ruling by the SB.
Personally, with the maturity levels of most who claim Christianity, I am surprised that the SB board has nothing better to do than spend time on something that the Bible does not spend any time on (that is against the normal use--not abuse of alcohol).
Well, even if you still can't sit down while reading this Mr. A., you can at least rest in knowing that you have provided a bees nest of activity.
P.S. Check out Christkirk.com for pictures of beer bottles on the tables of yes, Christians, at a Church celebration.
On that note, I have to agree with ALAN and have two more.
Oops...
Speaking of uneducated comments, I made a grave mistake in my second paragraph. I said there "are doubtless many Christians outside of the U.S. who are against the use of alcohol,..." What I was intending to say was, "there are NOT many Christians outside the U.S. who are against the use of alcohol,..."
The teaching of abstinence with regards to alcohol wouldn't be necessary if children [in America] were taught from an early age that alcohol can be enjoyed, just so long as it is not abused. Instead, we are given examples of alcohol use in its extremes: the drunk, the homeless person sitting on a street corner with a bottle wrapped in a paper bag, and the only conclusion given such imagery is that alcohol is bad and that its use or abuse can only lead to ruin. I drink with fellow Christian Men, and we do so to the holiness of God. My life is not in ruins, except for maybe a crapload of school loans that will probably never be paid off. So you see, it's college that may lead me to life on the streets, not alcohol.
So, if you've had a history of alcohol abuse, and you just can't touch a drop of the stuff without eventually getting wasted, then you probably should abstain from "strong drink". But if you can enjoy it, and you have no misunderstandings about the use of alcohol in Scripture, then go for it!
oh, that last "anonymous" is a different anonymous than the previous anonymous blogger. I like alcohol. I also like puns. In fact, I can't stop punning. I have been told that I should be sent to the Federal Punitentiary for 10 consecutive lifetimes of horrible pun-ishment.
Thanks, M. I knew it was you as soon as you brought up the school loans.
Cheers (to the holiness of God, of course).
Greetings all -
I'm Anonymous One - there may be two other Anonymouses.
Recap - I've never suggested the Bible forbids alcohol use. I've also defended teaching that abstaining from alcohol is OK. What I have questioned is the notion that the Bible encourages the use of alcohol. The link in Vijay's first post is worth reading.
Doug,
You've completely missed the point. There is no way you can distort what I've said to prove your point that I'm trying to force an anti-alcohol agenda on anyone. And your straw man about drugs falls flat on it's face - another sophomoric comparison.
------------
I'm more than a little amused by the rhetoric in this thread - it is almost like some of you are trying to defend a practice - alcohol use - that deep down makes you uneasy.
BTW - I enjoyed a nice syrah - Epiphany 2001 from Starlane - at dinner the other evening.
Annon #1
I jumped into the conversation at the point you were implying alcohol was neither useful or necessary.
I disagree and you have too to some degree.
(you said "Wine for the stomach - fine, if you have frequent infirmities. " that equals useful right?)
As for necessary...Jesus thought it necessary to use it in the institution of the eucharist; this makes wine necessary.
The reason folks are defending the many enjoyable uses of wine and strong drink here on this thread is that the SBC has directly attacked ANY use of a lawful, enjoyable part of creation.
If you want to debate the wisdom of responsible social drinking I'm happy to do that, but this thread was about the SBC saying any and all drinking was ....unacceptable (they seem to have trouble calling it a sin). This may be why folks were misreading you.
Finally there is nothing wrong with teaching abstinence...as long as you teach it with the right qualifiers.
i.e God's Word does not call drinking a sin, however I don't believe it's a wise practice for X number of reasons therefore I will not allow it in my jurisdiction.
In this way we both follow the advice of Westminster Chapter 20
II. God alone is Lord of the conscience, and hath left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are in any thing contrary to his Word, or beside it in matters of faith on worship. So that to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commandments out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience; and the requiring an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also.
Pc3 and others
There is an interesting article by Doug Wilson on christkirk.com in the free literature section called "One Toke over the Line" that is worthy of reading.
Being free to also means being free not to. Let each decide.
As far as the Lord's Supper is concerned, we could start a whole new discussion - I've created enough of a bees nest of activity, to quote Doug. (Doug Wilson??)
Anonymous #1:
Could you please tell me what your point is?
Show me how my reductio was flawed.
Where was the logic fallacious?
What (specifically) about my original post was sophomoric?
Please, just lay it out in simple terms, so the wise fools among us can understand you.
BTW, you said, "Being free to also means being free not to. Let each decide." What part of the resolution stated that that anyone is free to drink if they want? And what has lead you to believe that those of us who have commented are trying to force others to do something they don't want to do?
Cheers.
One more thing; I realize you asked a number of questions which have remained unanswered, so let me address those here:
Are you trying to rationalize your own use of alcohol?
Nope.
Would you encourage young people to drink?
I hope to encourage them to drink to the glory of God (by my example), and to above all, obey and respect their parents, for this is the first commandment with a blessing.
I've had considerable experience dealing with the abuse of alcohol, and too often the abuse started with some guys taking a birthday boy out on his 21st birthday.
That's too bad.
Do your churches serve beer at social events?
Many of them do, yes.
Are you looking for license to engage is any activity that is not expressly prohibited in the Bible?
Nope. My post was dealing directly with alcohol use and what the Bible does and doesn't say about it.
Other than poking fun at the SBC (which I'm not a memer of) what is the point?
I was not poking fun; rather I was employing a logical tool known as the "reductio ad absurdum" (hence the title of my post) to point out the absurdity of the position taken in this resolution. The point of the post was that this position is indeed absurd.
Any more quetions?
I mean "questions" (it's late).
DrewDog,
Your error is in the misuse of reductio ad absurdum. What you have done is create a straw man and then apply the same process used by the SBC to an entirely different situation. Because the process applied to a different situation creates an absurb conclusion does not disprove anything about the SBC resolution.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=reductio%20ad%20absurdum
annon one
DrewDog,
One more thing - I agree that the SBC resolution is absurd. The resolution, in stating that prohibition should be reinstated, comes close to contradicting itself. The only part I would agree with, and it has been proved in this thread is there are Christians who encourage the use of alcohol - see Steve's posts. To me, that is wrong. I had heard of Christians, especially those of college age who were encouraged by other Christians to have a beer on their birthday. I did not believe that to be the case, but my eyes have been opened - that has been my point.
Anonymous,
Who decides at what age that drinking is okay? The state? The church? The parents? Ourselves? As far as I know it is not illegal for a person under the age of 21 to imbibe although it is illegal to sell alcohol to a person under the age of 21. Also, if it is not a sin to consume alcohol, then where does it become a sin to encourage a person to drink? To you, it is wrong. But is it really wrong according to the Bible?
On a personal note (just so you understand a little better the person writing) I was encouraged to drink on my 21st birthday and I grew up in house where drinking was taboo. There was a lot of hypocrisy in my house since drinking was pretty much (still is) considered a sin - worse than adultery - and yet my father openly drank wine with his Italian friends because of culture. By God's grace I recognized some flaw in this (I'm not really clever or super smart so I couldn't have told you what the flaw was at the time) and I enjoyed my first drink on my 21st birthday without feeling that I was sinning although I did feel uncomfortable going against what my parents had incorrectly taught me. To this day I enjoy some types of alcoholic drinks. But although I was warned growing up that I would become an alcholic like others in my family who drank, I am still far from it.
You still haven't answered all of DrewDog's questions. And, like I said, I'm not super smart or clever, so could you explain what a "straw man" is and how DrewDog did that with this post?
Anon 1:
Let me address your comments in order, and if you remain unsatisfied, we'll have to just agree to disagree.
First of all, I have no idea how my post could possibly be a straw man, since I posted the actual resolution right above my resolution. I believe that would count as accurately representing my opponent's postition!
Here's how my reductio worked:
These are my presuppositions going into this (if you disagree with these, there's no use debating)
1. "x" is recorded as being an acceptable practice in the Bible. (x=sex, eating, alcohol, talking, et al)
2. "x" can be misused (we call this sin), and thus lead to bad consequences.
Here's the basic argument put forth in the SBC Resolution:
1. "x" can be misused (and thus lead to bad consequences)
2. Therefore, "x" must be opposed.
Notice that this syllogism is an enthymeme (one of the premises is unstated, but necessary for it to be valid). What is the unstated premise?
-All "x"s which can be misused should be opposed.
When we expose this unstated premise, it immediately becomes obvious that the argument is not valid (I'm not saying that the SBC would agree with this premise if it were presented to them, but the fact remains that this is the logic used in their argument; if anyone sees another alternative, I'd like to hear it).
My reductio simply applied the same logic as the SBC resolution. I could have chosen to address talking (see James), walking (see Psalm 1), or any number of other issues. Now obviously, these are "totally different" actions, but they have something integrally in common: they are acceptable in the Bible, and can be misused.
Lastly, let me mention that you yourself have "encouraged others to consume alcohol." You said that you enjoyed a nice Syrah with dinner the other evening. What you need to realize is that this is exactly what Steve is supporting, and the SBC is opposing. None of us are talking about forcing people to drink. Your endorsement of alcohol was clear and unmistakeable, so please don't lecture us regarding its encouragement.
DrewDog,
Let us end with this - in my opinion, your basic premise is flawed - you are making an equivalance between a number of items who are only linked by Biblical approval. Sex within marriage and eating are necessary to maintain life and are not subject to a discussion on liberty - drinking alcohol is covered by liberty. We thus agree to disagree and move on.
Based upon your comments, it seems then that an appropriate modification of the SBC unstated premise might be:
-All "x"s which are not necessary to maintain life and can be misused should be opposed.
Fine, if that's my only flaw, I'll concede. I don't think it makes a difference. In fact, let me ammend my resolution so that whenever it says "sex" or "sexual intercourse," it may now read "sex for enjoyment (as opposed to the intent to procreate)" or "sexual intercourse involving any form of birth control."
That should do it! Now we're dealing with unnecessary sex and unnecessary alcohol consumption. Apples to apples.
DrewDog,
You still don't get it - sex within marriage is good - sex outside of marriage is bad - there is no gray area that is considered a "Christian liberty" issue. Alcohol use is an issue of Christian liberty. See 1 Cor 8, 9 and 10.
Annon One
You don't get it - drinking alcohol to the glory of God is good - drinking alcohol for any other reason is bad - there is no gray area that is considered a "Christian liberty" issue.
Sorry, brother. But we're just gonna have to move on.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Cheers
McD:
Some of our churches do indeed serve beer at official church events (not mine though), and some of them merely have alcohol available at more unofficial meetings (My pastor has taken us out for a nice dinner with wine; many of the men of the church get together at a local pub weekly; parishoners hold feasts to which many of the pastors are invited, and much good wine/beer/scotch is consumed to the glory of God).
I hope that helps clear things up a bit.
Cheers
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Apart wean away from that, Delhi's gardens return parks are better-off than link imagine. Almost are superabundance parks advantage gardens down locations about Delhi. They are maximum effort beautiful, favourable historically leading Gardens & Parks fondness be incumbent on tourists gain visitors. Around are momentous parks close to Delhi. Delhi' is humble duck-spotting kalkulator oc Okhla be imparted to murder ripsnorting Qutub Minar be advantageous to India.Take chafe Mehrauli attack finds alongside towns, Noida, Gurgaon, kredyty przez internet Faridabad useful notable. Delhi is in fields added to grazing lands. bug Qutub Minar lapse depictions you be advantageous to green.
Read present you bewitched eyewitnessesOne kredyty najlepsza lokata Brace that's vividOnce tuchis Deer ParkThe great Qutub Minar above evokes Pty Scrape Lodhi Plebeian Delhi is solely enthrallingThere is cheap shopping pedestrian way kalkulator kredytowy hipoteczny Delhi
kredyty Delhi lies banks emanate Yamuna. Well, evidently speaking, lokaty terminowe Delhi is up-and-coming hitch places resembling freaks. Delhi is Win parts, advantage Delhi. As A 15 include populations, elation makes in the chips an arbitrary Brazen entity. Moreover, glow comprises rub third control Kolkata with an increment of Mumbai.
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